Interview: George Lee / Chez Jorge
Exploring Taiwanese Cuisine and Identity with George Lee
I had the pleasure of speaking with George Lee, creator of Chez Jorge and author of A Gong's Table, to uncover the profound connection between food, culture, and identity. His book, a stunning collaboration with photographer Laurent Hsai, takes readers on a heartfelt journey through Taiwanese cuisine, deeply influenced by his grandfather, Buddhist traditions, and his experiences navigating life across cultures.
At the heart of the book lies a tribute to George's grandfather, whose round wooden table symbolized the warmth and unity of family gatherings during his childhood. Together, we delve into George’s reflections on family, the evolution of their culinary traditions after his grandfather's passing, and the rich tapestry of Taiwan's gastronomy. From Buddhist vegetarian practices to the creative impulses that shaped his storytelling, George brings a deeply personal and insightful perspective to the table.
George’s book is a beautiful love letter to Taiwan and a quietly uncompromising work of personal and national exploration, guiding readers through Taiwan’s vibrant food culture with a rhythm as steady and intimate as footsteps. The conversation expands on this in a personal way into craft, his time in the military, Taiwan and other interesting tangents.
Excerpts from Interview
“The book was exactly like a learning process. I didn't have a clear idea of what I was gonna write until it was written.”
“ Looking at new things with old eyes and to feel the changes”
“ I think it's always like that when you're too comfortable with your own surroundings, there's not that much to write about anymore.”
“It's sort of the feeling I wanted to capture with my cooking was just, like a sort of home cooking that is comforting that brings you home.”
Time Stamps:
00:00 Introduction
00:46 The Origin of Name Chez Jorge
01:45 Exploring Identity and Pen Names
04:32 Journey into Taiwanese Vegan Cooking
09:08 Social Media and Community Interaction
11:52 Family Traditions and Grandfather's Influence
18:18 Vegetarianism and Buddhist Practices
29:22 Balancing Tradition and Modernity in Taiwan
30:40 Authenticity of Taiwanese Life
31:05 Fusion of Cultures in Taiwan
32:01 Exploring Taiwan with New Eyes
34:08 Language and Identity
37:29 Collaborating with Laurent
40:12 Future Projects and Interests
43:35 Military Service and Food
48:55 Reflections on Taiwanese Cuisine
53:10 Concluding Thoughts
Interview Introduction
(I recommend listening to the conversation as the medium is the message - but for those visual learners here is a transcript. Please note: Apologies in advance for minor transcription errors and inaccuracies.)
George: The book was exactly like a learning process. I didn't have a clear idea of what I was gonna write until it was written.
Looking at new things with old eyes and to feel the changes
It's sort of the feeling I wanted to capture with my cooking was just, like a sort of home cooking that is comforting that brings you home.
I think it's always like that when you're too comfortable with your own surroundings, there's not that much to write about anymore.
Meeting George and Discussing the Cookbook
Leafbox: Hey, good morning, George. Thank you so much for taking some time from your busy schedule to meet with me. I got your book. It's beautiful. I think you and Laurent did a wonderful job of creating this just a beautiful cookbook and a beautiful story. The writing's great. The photography is beautiful. It really connects me to Taiwan. I have not made anything yet from the book, though. I've been looking at the breakfasts and I think I'll start with that.
The Origin of Name Chez Jorge
Leafbox: But George, why don't you tell me where this Chez Jorge comes from and just tell me the whole story about who A Gong is and how you came to this book.
George: I'm not sure. Yeah. I'm not sure if Chez George is really connected with the book, although it's I guess in a, you know, the more conceptual way. Yeah. Because she has Jorge I lived in Paris for a month and I found that a lot of restaurants had Chez in front of, their names.
So like Chez has yeah, so it Chez anything. Yeah. Chez. So, so when I started to make cooking videos online, I needed a name that wasn't George Lee. So I just thought Chez Jorge was a good thing, was a nice name because it's sort of, sort of the, it's sort of the feeling I wanted to capture with my cooking was just, like a sort of home cooking that is comforting that brings you home.
Exploring Identity and Pen Names
Leafbox: I think there's something, can we stay on the name for a second? I think your real name is George Lee, but then you have this kind of alter persona
George: Jorge
Leafbox: yeah. Jorge Chez Jorge. So I think there's some, maybe something deeper there. What is that about? Are you humbling yourself? Are you, what is that about exploring your identity?
You're kind of between spaces. What do you think that's about?
George: The Jorge, I honestly people called me Jorge when I was little for some reason but I never, it didn't really come across to me as a Spanish word until later. I just thought it was a different way to pronounce George. I think that the word Jorge always stuck with me, the way that pronunciation, that way of saying George.
Leafbox: Well, I think it's interesting still, you have like different ways of approaching your own self.
So that might be something to think about. Or I'm curious about, you have a lot of different, your, this book is about you connecting with Taiwan, but then when I step a bit back, it seems like there's more exploration.
George: I like having a, I think when I write, I like having a pen name or I, if I'm going to write something else in the future, I'm going to use a pen name or maybe just my Mandarin name, because here's why we think
Leafbox: Many people I've interviewed use a pen name and some of them are anonymous. So I don't know if there's something to that about it, or do you feel lighter or more free with a pen?
George: I do. I definitely do. What Do you write with a pen name or?
Leafbox: Yes I do. And both, I think there's something freeing about it in that you can just liberate yourself from your daily persona into some other character.
And that may be, especially with censorship and some of the pressure we have in society, but I'm not sure what it's like as a Taiwanese or Taiwanese American person in Taiwan. So
George: I think it's the same.
I'll get anxious that it's, the writing is attached to me and I have a certain responsibility to, to make it true. I think even when we're writing, even when we're writing when we're just documenting or recalling things, It's never going to be completely accurate. I think that's part of the reason I find it hard to write about people who are still living.
Because they're, or if I'm trying to write a completely accurate account of people who are still living. Because I just feel like I'm not able to see every, see the whole perspective.
Journey into Taiwanese Vegan Cooking
Leafbox: So George, why don't you step back and just, Tell me about this book, A Gong's Table, who A Gong is for people who aren't familiar, and then what prompted this whole project?
George: Yeah, well, it's pronounced Ah Gong in the, in Taiwanese, and Ah Gong is is refers to grandfather. And my grandfather who I lived with was, is my paternal grandfather. And He is the question who he is.
Leafbox: No, I'm just, who are you? And what's this book for people who aren't familiar with your work?
Leafbox: Give me a quick introduction for people. Then we can go straight into deeper topics.
George: Who am I?
Leafbox: Well, these are philosophical questions, but just on a superficial level what is your book, your published book on Taiwanese vegetarian, vegan cooking. Tell me about that. Where did that come from? What prompted it?
George: Sure. Yeah. I've always been interested in plant based protein and that is something that I've just, I've had an interest in since I was in college and even when I'm, even now that I'm not completely vegetarian, I will, I'm still interested in the topic.
I'm not, I just, I realized I'm not, I'm, I don't like to eat meat that much and it's nice to be, and I, it's nice to. To explore like different kinds of protein and food. Think when we focus, when we eat, focus too much on meat, you kind of limit your diet to like pork, chicken, fish. But then there's so many different legumes and actually I realize that Taiwanese people don't don't eat that many beans and legumes.
But that is something that I want to promote in the future in Taiwanese cooking, but why do I write this book I Yeah.
So, so I, so when I was in college I studied chemistry for a while and I helped out at our college's what was this sort of an alternative protein lab. And we, you know, we did all kinds of research about different sort of different emulsifiers, especially because because we were interested in about, in creating vegetable meats that will pan fry the same way as as meat. But yeah, that, that sort of that, that was what I was interested before I started making cooking videos and when the pandemic happened, I started cooking a lot at home. And honestly, at that point, I wasn't very familiar with cooking meat either or just cooking in general. So, so, so I didn't, I think for one, I didn't have the courage to, to, I didn't really want to buy meat from the grocery store and cook them, so I just, when I started cooking for myself every day it was lockdown, and I was in Hawaii, with my brother went to, my brother goes to University of Hawaii and I was in Hawaii, and cooking for my brother, and I just started to cook a lot of vegetarian dishes.
And every now and then I would take photos and upload it on Instagram. That's sort of how everything started.
Leafbox: And then that project grew into a larger kind of exploration with your friend. So tell me about that.
George: Yeah. And Ten Speed Press, which is the publisher of the book they approached me actually for, about writing a certain book. And there was another publisher that also approached me at a similar time.
And I, and then I just thought, man maybe I would write a book. Cause, and then, and it just happened that I I moved back to Taipei and when I sat down and started to really think about writing this book and at first the Ten Speed Press wanted me to write a book. Kind of book that captured like a, like world cuisine.
So, so sort of, Chez George's take on different cuisines like veganizing different cuisines. And I told him I didn't want to do that. Cause I, cause you couldn't be an expert cook on every, on, on so many different cuisines. So I told him I wanted to focus on Taiwan, but I wasn't sure what yet.
Social Media and Community Interaction
Leafbox: George, going back a second. So you start posting these videos during lockdown, Instagram. I don't use Instagram. But I didn't realize that you have over half a million followers. How was that experience? How is that? Is that stressful? Is that pleasant? What is that like?
Do people send you recipes? Do they want, you know, how do you interact with that population? Or do you kind of just do your own thing?
George: I think at this point that people already realize that I don't post that much anymore, but I used to, I, I used to post almost every day. And I think for a good year, I did that. I, I posted almost every day and I interacted with the community. For me, it was a stressful thing.
Leafbox: What was stressful about it? Just the demands of the community or?
George: I think just the attention and a sort of like phantom thread that makes you want to hang out to some part, some persona of yourself.
Leafbox: How did the community respond to your book then?
George: Some of the people thought it was completely different from what, from the kinds of videos that I posted, Which was surprising for them.
When I announced the book, they, They were all, There was a lot of positive response. People were excited about it.
Leafbox: Going back to my question about identity, Now it seems I came to your book first, And then to, I didn't really even look at your social media, I just was like, I checked it out and that's, I didn't click at all.
I wasn't really interested in that aspect. I'm more interested in your writing and your journey in this book.
George: Yeah.
Leafbox: I'm curious if you're shedding part of that kind of social, it seems more of a superficial, was it more superficial, that relationship and your books quite deep for a cookbook. So
George: I think so. It's hard to, I think the, kinds of videos I made were like 30 seconds to one minute and they were just. really condensed ways of explaining dishes that or kinds of cooking or culture that, that I wasn't really happy with. And it really wasn't a way of getting to know other people or feel like you're getting known.
It was all just very surface.
I think that, that part was, Also, I made it tiring.
Leafbox: It's funny because your recipes are so elaborate in this book that it's almost the opposite. There's a lot of preparation.
George: It's almost too elaborate. People have told me that it's impossible to cook from. Not impossible, It's just very, a lot, yeah.
Family Traditions and Grandfather's Influence
Leafbox: So George, going back to the, tell us the premise of the book what's your journey, what happens with your grandfather tell me about the culture of the 100 days in Taiwan.
George: My grandfather was a lot of things, but I remember him as a woodworker or an architect. I feel like people back then didn't really have labels. They just did things. They weren't like, Oh, because I'm a. I'm a mathematician, so I can do math. He just did sort of, he just kind of did everything and different things throughout through different points in his life.
But but from the stories that I hear from my mom, He's always been interested in, you know, building things, and especially furniture. A lot of the furniture in our old house, old home, was built by him, and including a really large round table, which could sit around 15 people because that was how many people lived together when I was little. So that, that was, that's sort of the premise. And I grew up with my grandparents in that home until I was 17 or 18 when my grandfather passed. My grandfather was sort of the I, yeah, our family was really very traditional and he was sort of a, at the center of it, he was the patriarch and sort of glue that held us all together.
Listened to him, I think, in almost every aspect of life. And my dad, he had my dad, and my dad had three sisters, so my dad was the only, so in the traditional sense, my dad was the only sort of in in grandson.
Which means, oh, in son, not grandson, in son, and I'm the only, I, me and my brother and I are the only in grandson who carry the Lee surname. Cause all, cause my dad's sisters, when they get married and have kids, their kids would not be the name, would not be, have the Lee surname, so, so. My my dad's line is sort of, my, my grandfather puts the most pressure on him in a way.
But that's just the kind of. traditional framework. Yeah, I don't know if that's relevant, but I grew up in that kind of space. And I think the point is our family, we always ate together at the same round table and every night we would have a whole spread of dishes. And that's what I was used to, the kind of home cooking.
Leafbox: Was he the main one cooking? Did he have maids or his wife help?
George: He, when I came around, I don't think he, I think he used to, but when I came around in the sixties, seventies he didn't cook anymore. And he just, he we have one maid and he just instructed her to cook.
Leafbox: Yeah. Because if you're cooking for 15 people, it's quite a lot of work.
George: Yeah. And my mom would help us all and just. It's the whole operation . Yeah.
Leafbox: So this book is then, are you continuing his kind of lineage or are you connecting to him through the book, or what's your what memory surface with this book?
George: I think so I think before writing this book, I it, like the book was almost, was exactly like a learning process. I didn't have a clear idea of what I was gonna write until it was written. And until I really sat down to talk to my grandmother or my mom about these details of our, I, my own upbringing as well, my own growing up, as well as just, before, like what happened before me , from writing this book I grew a deeper connection to my family and my grandfather. And it is really weird. I feel like I, I only started to get to know my grandfather after he passed away. Yeah.
Leafbox: And what did you get to know?
George: Well, maybe it was, it's like a more singular perspective of my grandfather.
Or like a sort of ideal version of it. I just got to know about, I just grew a deeper, a much I wouldn't say deeper. I just grew a new appreciation of the things he did, of the, and not just cooking. And I think that a kind of passion for craft. And
yeah, I, maybe I mentioned to you, I've been interested in doing woodwork as well. And I was building my own wooden table. I can show you pictures of it.
Leafbox: Are you trying to build the same 15 person large table?
George: No, I built a small one that fits like four or five people, but it was it's a very similar design.
I just looked, I just looked at the table my grandfather built for a long time and tried to make something similar.
I really like the design because it's like a roundness. The leg of the table is actually just one pillar as an octagon, and that has a meaning in in like traditional Chinese like feng shui or something.
It's called ba gua.
Leafbox: And what does that mean? Is this through its coordinates or harmony or what does it mean in the octagon system?
George: It's it's really complicated. I actually don't really know.
I actually don't really understand it, but it is eight. It, it gives a meaning to eight and six because it's eight sides and then there's six pairs of like six pairs of three lines, like I send it to you. So, so my, so, so the design is like the leg is eight, eight a eight sides.
And then I have six pieces of of. I divide the circle on the table surface into six.
Leafbox: So George, maybe for your next book, it can be an exploration of Taiwanese feng shui and woodworking techniques.
Vegetarianism and Buddhist Practices
Leafbox: Coming back to your book, tell me about the nuns and the process.
When your grandpa passes away, what's the process of this abstaining of meat and the culture there?
George: The process is very sudden. Well, the day he passed away, I still remember that he was just, Well, in the final few days, actually that wasn't a few days, it was just one day, the final day of his life, we took him back from the ICU the hospital, and it was a decision that my parents made, because we realized that he wasn't gonna make it and so, so we wanted to bring him home for, like, where he would take his last breath.
Because the belief is that if the person didn't pass in his home, he would be lost for a very long time and wouldn't be able to find their way home. But that was what we did. We brought him home for one day and it was a whole operation as well because we needed like a bunch of, we needed a stretcher.
We needed. Like a bunch of different equipment to, to keep like his oxygen level. And yeah, my, my parents are crazy. But that, we pulled it off and brought him back home and yeah, and he was there for, he was in the living room he laid in the living room for one night.
And I think by, and that, that. At night, by 4 or 5 a. m. His oxygen level just kept dropping, and my, and I think my parents didn't sleep that night but I had school the other day, so, so when I woke up, it was like 6 or 7 a. m. And I just found that everyone was surrounding him, and, that he wasn't, he didn't pass away, he was just really weak, and I went to school and when I was at school around like 10 AM my, my dad called me and said, Oh the grandfather passed she couldn't usually come home and so I, yeah, so I, when I came home I saw a bunch of many nuns at the living room and they were already chanting.
It was a, it was an eight hour chant that they're supposed to, they tell me it's meant to help the spirit separate from the body. And they tell me that it's the, when the spirit separates from the body, it's a very painful experience. It's almost like needles pricking the skin. So the chant that they doing helps to ease his pain and I helped him chant.
It was just the same chant over and over again. And I, and there was just seats surrounding him and there were empty seats that were for us to alternate to help chant. And so I, I went there and helped chant and then by, by noontime the nuns brought brought us bento boxes that were vegetarian.
So that was my first experience with vegetarian food. I think in Taiwan, vegetarian cooking and restaurants are very, at least, at least back then, I think for the past like six or seven years it's been getting different, but I clearly remember back then it was, there was not many vegan restaurants around and when you wanted to eat vegetarian cooking you would be going to one of those like food halls or or buffet restaurants that, that like half like, like a third of the people eating there are nuns because it's just, it's very much tied vegetarian food is very much tied with Buddhist Buddhism or Buddhist eating because because it's And you'll find that it like the kind of cooking follows their, the kind of the, their agenda or beliefs, for example, not having alliums and no, like no eggs or whatever.
Well, actually sometimes there would be eggs. No. Buddhists, there are different, many different sects and some of them don't eat eggs and some of them eat milk. It's just, it's not like completely all vegan. You're not, you're like, no, nothing related to animals. Yeah. Where was I?
Leafbox: You were just explaining the different types of vegetarianism, the concept, and I guess Taiwan is that vegetarianism is linked to being a Buddhist.
But now, obviously,
George: it might be changing. Now it's sort of changing, I feel it's changing, and you find even many fine dining restaurants that are doing vegetarian, it's sort of a, it's sort of a wave now, it's sort of a fashion. Yeah.
Leafbox: So going back to, they bring you these beautiful, I assume they're beautiful, funeral bentos.
George: Yes. Well, they weren't, I'm not sure if there were funeral bentos, but they were just bentos that they made they make bentos all the time. And yeah, they, or to me there was a funeral bento. Yeah. And we could call it a funeral bento, but I remember it was a me memorable meal.
Leafbox: What was so memorable about it? Just the presentation or what they served you or,
George: I actually don't really remember, or I remember. A few things, there were like kabocha squash, there was some vegetarian protein and rice and blanched vegetables and like mixed nuts. That was their standard bento, but I just remember sitting there and eating it and it just felt you know, when someone, when somebody, like when somebody in your life has just passed away, it's really hard to, I feel like your emotion, your emotions are all just all over the place.
And even then you get so hyper aware of you're only, like how you're supposed to act. How are you supposed to act, you know, when someone important just, you know, just passed away. Yeah, like just the, that, the act of eating just wasn't like, I just felt, everyone was really silent when they were eating, and I just felt I had sort of suppressed emotion there.
I just had that feeling of suppressed. It's sort of connected to a later thing that I saw at the temple, which is a really big sign that says, which means no talking when you're eating. I think for the nuns, even. eating, of course, cooking but especially eating, even eating is a kind of ascetic practice.
Leafbox: No, of course. Yeah. That's a chance to meditate.
George: So you're not supposed to talk when you eat.
Leafbox: So what, what gets you into, because the role of food was so important for your grandfather and what motivates you to start learning from these nuns? What's the relationship with the nuns and how do you ask them to teach you to start cooking?
And what's that process like?
George: Well. They told us that it was best for us to abstain from eating meat for at least 49 days. That's the time it takes for that's the time it takes for actually I need to review my, my I think that is the time for it for it to take to, for the soul to run through like a certain number of they call it like sort of steps. Like every seven days, I think every seven days, this, or the first seven, like every seven there will be a, it will be a different, it will mean a different thing for the newly deceased. I'm not sure I can't recall it right now, but for example, the first seven would be like, this all would come back to the home and look around and stuff something like that.
But yeah they told us to, that it would be best sort of karmic resp karmic responsibility to, to not be eating meat for a while, or at least 49 days. And we agreed to it. So, and they told us they told us that they would bring bento for us every day or to help us with that process.
And so, so I did when I came home and we also had a series of like prayers. Like every afternoon we would bring the food that they sent to us to the, to our like home shrine. And we would give that as sort of Agong's dinner. So, so, and after we prayed, we would eat what they gave us.
So I, I did that for a while. And I, yeah every day I came home from school and I would eat the vegetarian bento boxes that they prepared for us, or it wasn't always bento boxes. Sometimes it was really gigantic sushi rolls that had the mock meat floss and all different kinds of vegetables like burdock, carrots, those things.
But they were, and cucumbers and things. They were delicious. And then I started to get interested about the kind of cooking that they did. And I asked if I could go and be a volunteer. They're always in need of volunteers. The one in Taipei is sort of, it's called Taipei Dizang temple and the one in Taipei, the, their location in Taipei is sort of their central kitchen.
And so they make, they cook, they're cooking for hundreds every day and sending it to different parts of Taiwan, but they are, they're always in need of volunteers. So yeah, I, I think the first time I hang, I. I helped out with them. I helped them out was was one of the traditional.
Leafbox: Is this for soy milk?
George: No, it wasn't that it was one of their religious gatherings called King Kong, like King Kong something. It's but weirdly enough, that was actually, that was also the first religious assembly that I attended. For grieving my grandfather, that's, cause that was that's one of the, one of the assemblies that you attend when you have a, you need to seize a relative.
Yeah, but I helped out one of them and that one day they did 12 dishes or something It was eye opening so many different dishes
Balancing Tradition and Modernity in Taiwan
Leafbox: George was this how do you feel as a Taiwan has the image of this super modern, Taiwanese semiconductor companies, but everything you're talking about is kind of traditional life.
How is that being in Taiwan for us in the West. How do you explain that kind of dichotomy between tradition and the future? Everything you're telling me is all these kind of, Asian traditional practices, right? Buddhist funeral, these religious altar ceremonies and blessings. It's just an interesting, you speak English perfectly.
How are you, is there a conflict between, with the past and the future? How does that, how is it to be Taiwanese? How do you balance the past and the future and the present?
George: I think in many ways I, it's not very balanced for me. I'm very much by my, I think some of my friends who really understand me, tell me that I feel like a very worn out sweater. Like I, I really, I just, I'm interested in things that are just, that are used and sort of old, but not like superficially old.
I don't know.
Leafbox: No, it sounds like you want authentic things. So you want.
George: Yeah.
Authenticity of Taiwanese Life
Leafbox: The nuns sound very authentic to me.
George: I think that. There are still many aspects of Taiwan's life that are, I don't know. I guess people, it's hard to,
I, although I feel like hyper modern is more of a act, more is only really accurate for Taipei.
Like for the past few months that I've lived in Tainan, it feels completely different from Taipei.
Fusion of Cultures in Taiwan
Leafbox: Well, either way the book paints a beautiful picture of this kind of complex. Fusion, right. You there's a chapter in your old and new, yeah, old and new. There's a chapter in your book where you introduce the readers to, I guess the Taiwanese famous breakfast, and that's kind of a post-war invention.
Yes. So that's interesting to me. So there's always this fusion. There's so many cultures in Taiwan from the mainland, Chinese to the Japanese, the indigenous Taiwanese. So it's a very interesting place and I think you captured
George: well. I think I sort of, sort of.
Sort of a feeling of looking at new things with old eyes. I don't know if that's a way of describing that kind of
Leafbox: Say that again? You want to look at old things with new eyes?
George: Looking at new things with old eyes and to feel the changes.
Leafbox: That's a very beautiful statement.
Exploring Taiwan with New Eyes
Leafbox: So tell me about you traveling around Taiwan. You start with the nuns, you ask to volunteer there. And you start, going deeper, less superficial into maybe the new and the old.
George: I felt I've always, I think maybe it's just the kind of growing up that I had sort of being secluded from the city. I felt that things really have changed or was different back then.
Leafbox: . Did you start with that process to try to see new things with old eyes? Or did you, was that kind of a conclusion of your book? Did you start with that viewpoint or?
George: I think that was a kind of, well, that was closer to the end.
That wasn't, I didn't start with a, I didn't really start with a concept. I think I just let it take me, let the things take me where it is. I think my concept became only mature after I was almost done. I don't know, I think everyone has a different way of writing. Or at least, I definitely, for me, I didn't really understand anything at the start.
So there was no way of coming up with a strong concept and following it.
Leafbox: No, I think you started as you went along your journey. You started building pieces.
George: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I sort of when I look at old pictures and black and white pictures that are just kept in different paper boxes throughout the corner of the house.
I just, I sort of try to imagine what it was like back then. I'm. And I wonder how how our imagination might might redeem or even revive what was lost.
Leafbox: Do you have any interesting stories from the nuns? Humorous or hard working?
George: Yeah, the nuns were very funny. When we're cooking together, they would be playing like some really bouncy beats, and they're not super serious in general. And just very kind people.
Language and Identity
Leafbox: Tell me about the languages you're speaking with the nuns. Are you speaking Taiwanese, Mandarin?
George: I always, I'm always speaking like a mix of Mandarin and Taiwanese, because I'm not completely fluent in Taiwanese. Yeah. Great. I think that's something that I'm working on recently.
Leafbox: Do you feel sad that Taiwanese is kind of dying out in Taiwan, or what's the relationship with Taiwanese language?
George: Yeah, my, my generation, it's, if you grew up in Taipei, a lot of people did not speak Taiwanese growing up. It's just really hard now to learn the language, to learn the language when you didn't. Didn't grow up seeking it. Yeah, I feel sad that I'm not fluent. But I'm working on it slowly.
It's I wouldn't say it's really dying out, but
It's definitely seeing a comeback recently with all well, wasn't it? It's the comeback. I'm not sure People are starting to recognize Taiwanese for its literary value. That's one thing. There, there are many, like so many books recently coming out that are completely written in Taiwanese, which are impossible to read, even for Taiwanese, like native speakers.
It's like almost a completely different language.
Leafbox: Talking about language, you went to an American school in Taipei, correct?
George: I did, yeah. I went for high school.
Leafbox: How was the you sound fully bicultural to me. What's, then you go to Berkeley for college.
George: Yes.
Leafbox: Where do you fit yourself? Are you Taiwanese American, both?
George: I have no idea.
Well, I'm not Taiwanese American,
Leafbox: but you're not Taiwanese.
George: I'm not Taiwanese. I know because there are people close to me that are just completely different. And they're Taiwanese. Like they know that I'm not completely Taiwanese.
Leafbox: Do you think being a little bit of a foreigner in your own country helps you write this book or explore your country?
George: For sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's always like that when you're too comfortable with your own surroundings, there's not that much to write about anymore.
Leafbox: What was your experience going to the U. S. like for college? Was that, did you have cultural, culture shock or not? What did you think of Asian Americans or just California?
George: I think part of being, being like in between cultures for me, gives me, makes me feel like I, I'm able to adapt really quickly to like different spaces. So I wasn't, it wasn't really much of a culture shock, like my best friend, my one, like some of my best friends in college were Indian American or Korean American, or what I think of Asian Americans?
Leafbox: That's a big question,
George: Yeah, that's a pretty big question. I just think they're even their own I couldn't call myself Taiwanese American because I'm just not American enough. I just feel like Taiwanese Americans are their own kind of, have their own kind of culture that I'm not a part of.
Collaborating with Laurent
Leafbox: How was working with your colleague Laurent? Tell me about working with a fellow, global Taiwanese person.
How did you select him as a photographer? How did he join the project? He is a very beautiful photography.
George: We were just hiking one day. And it was when, it was really, it was when he just started taking photos. He didn't even touch analog yet. He was just taking digital photos and then he really wanted to capture a sort of like silhouette of the sunset in the mountains.
And so we were hiking and he was just taking those photos. And and then, I don't know, we were just talking, I was just telling him about the book that I'm trying, I'm thinking about, and he was like, Oh, you know, I can take your photos. That's it. That was it. I was just like, okay, sure. And then, and we didn't even know what that meant of being, working together.
And so that was also something that we grew into.
Yeah. It wasn't a selection process at all.
Leafbox: I mean, his photography is just really perfect for your book. It really compliments it. I think you're both kind of exploring in it, you through writing.
George: Yeah. I decided, I felt like I knew what photos I wanted. And I told him, okay, I wanted this, that, and that. And he was like, okay, sure. Just make a Google like sheets for me and tell me which shots I need. And I, and we did, and I did that. And we went out, set out to, we went out to take some, certain photos of the things that I selected.
And, but then we were never really happy with it. And also my story was still developing. I was still like learning new things as we went. And every now and then we'll have like new conversations about what visuals should represent this new knowledge, and it was always a back and forth, and sometimes he he would have certain things that he wanted to photograph, or he would show me certain things he did photograph and we, and at the start we always went on these photography trips together, and I think towards the end because of different reasons we, or because we were in the same place he would do these photo trips on his own and sometimes not and so it was, and so it became sort of like a we were operating on two different wavelengths that interact, intersected at different points, and so it became a book, I think, that told Sort of distinct perspectives, but also one that achieved a kind of harmony.
I don't know. It's interesting to think about like how a work grows into itself.
Leafbox: No, I think it's very natural. The book feels very, yeah, it just starts like a cookbook, but then it seems to be something bigger than that.
Future Projects and Interests
Leafbox: What's your future for exploring Taiwan or other topics? Are you guys working on another book together or what's interesting you right now?
George: What's interesting, I'm interested in the woodworking. It's called for cooking wise, I'm interested in this place called Meidong right now. In Kaohsiung, and I've been going there every now and then to like research and look at things. And I want Laurent to come and take photos of that place.
I think it's really beautiful. And the name in in Mandarin, Meinong, means the concentrated beauty, which is, well, which is what I think of that place.
Leafbox: And what's so special about this place? It's beautiful.
George: I'm interested in the kind of, it's a, well for one, it's a major like settlement for Hakka people, Taiwanese Hakka people. I think around 90 percent of the people living there are Hakka or even more 95. But so there's a distinct kind of cooking that happens around there. One that, takes a lot of care with preserve things, which is what I also want.
I'm interested in as a part of the book, preserving food, salting some bath. Grass, but that's a even more pronounced part of Hakka cooking. And also a kind of and because I don't really, I don't only eat vegetarian food now, so there's also like a, it's kind of river. Inner river kind of cooking that I'm interested in because Hakka people, only two Hakka settlements in Taiwan are along the coast.
So only two places where you can find Hakka people like using seafood, otherwise in in Hakka language, or at least in the Taiwanese. In the Taiwanese version of Hakka you don't find like many of the, many words that are corresponding to seafood. Like when you go to a seafood market, almost every fish you can find a corresponding Taiwanese Hokkien word for it, but when you ask a Hakka person they would have no idea what it's called or they would just call it in its Mandarin name.
So you, but for just some language itself, you don't know that Hakka people are not very familiar with oceanic food. So, so, I'm interested in that kind of like the inner river a sort of. Foraging lifestyle. So for them, they would eat.
Like they, they would eat forage, like river frogs, like tiny frogs, and I don't know. I'm still exploring that part of cooking.
Leafbox: Are you doing any explorations with the indigenous food of Taiwan?
George: I am. That's sort of a different interest. I think I need to narrow myself down a bit. But yeah I was in Taitung lately, And we ate a bunch of indigenous food there.
Really interesting as well. Just, I think, I just You just so slowly collect like the knowledge and see what we're gonna do with it in the future.
Military Service and Food
Leafbox: You know, one question, you did military service. What was the food like in Taiwanese military?
George: Oh, it was horrible. It was I was, well, that was part of the reason I stopped eating vegetarian because the food was so bad.
Yeah, when I just got into the military, I told them, I told my officer, I told him, Yeah I'm a vegetarian, so you need to make vegetarian food for me. And he was like, okay. And so in the whole, in our squadron of 140 people, I was the only one to eat vegetarian. So Every time, like during mealtime, they'd be like the vegetarian guy come out and I would go out and I would take the vegetarian food and then the rest of the people would get their meal.
And I did that for two months. I'm just eating that, and it wasn't very carefully prepared. It was just put together very randomly, and a lot of times it was the kinds of processed vegetarian protein that, and it wasn't even processed correctly. It would be like boiled, you know, those kinds of soy protein chunks.
You really have to fry it with oil for it to take on a pleasant mouthfeel and texture. Like, when you just boil it, it will taste like rubber. So it was really horrible. And it's just very really lack of of natural protein sources. So many meals I ate just white rice with blanched vegetables. Yeah.
Leafbox: So was this were you ready to not defend Taiwan, with this food? I don't know.
George: Definitely.
I was not, I was just, I was, Well, I was still really energetic, but I ate a lot of junk food just to maintain myself. Yeah.
Leafbox: What was the general I know for us in the West, what's the general feeling about mainland China?
You're in, are you worried about them taking over or is that kind of western propaganda? What's the general, the green blue?
George: We're sort of, we're worried a little bit for sure.
When I was literally on the very first front line, I was on the west coast like where time straight river actually. Really weird coincidence that I was just across Tamsui River, but I was in Bali, which is yeah, right across where the where I grew up.
And then along the beach just facing China. And we had two times where they told us that there was a whole fleet of ships. Like surrounding us and that we had to get into our battle positions.
Yeah.
Leafbox: Do you think the average Taiwanese soldiers, would he actually fight or would he just surrender or what's the actual patriotism?
George: Oh, well, we're definitely, there's no way we're doing like much of anything when there's actually a conflict. I think the training just doesn't work.
Leafbox: Does it feel like Taiwan's an American colony or like a Chinese colony?
George: No, it still feels it doesn't feel like we're anybody's colony, but
I don't know, I think we try really hard not to think about like how things might be different if there was actually a conflict. We're just living it like day to day like that.
Leafbox: Yeah. It's just interesting because you were in the military and you don't seem to be so confident, about the the defensive line.
George: Yeah. No, I feel like if there was actually something, my base would be blown up within five seconds. So Okay. Yeah.
Leafbox: Well, I guess the food made it worthwhile, but
George: I don't know if I'm supposed to say this. I don't think I'm supposed to say this at all.
Leafbox: No, I'm sure the Taiwanese and the Chinese know, and the Americans know, it's impossible. It's a small country of 30 million versus a billion people. It's just a very difficult situation. I understand. You have to laugh about it, right?
George: I think our advantage is just that the Taiwan Strait is there and makes it very hard. Or, not very hard. It makes it risky to do anything.
Leafbox: Well, hopefully nothing. I'm a fan of Taiwan, so just keep says is any other projects George, you want to share that you're working on? I think you're doing like an education thing, right? Aren't you doing something as well?
George: That's what Lawrence is doing. I'm mostly just focused on personal projects and just not personal. Recently. I told you about Meinong, right? I'm helping them out with a sort of project about, about limiting local produce and like designing a menu. But it's all just like still in the, we're still in the talking stage.
Reflections on Taiwanese Cuisine
Leafbox: No it's, it sounds like you have a lot of projects just exploring the rich kind of culinary world of Taiwan.
George: Yeah, it's been really fun.
Leafbox: And then my last question, when I met you, George, in person, you were cooking in a restaurant. How has that been?
George: I'm still there. I'm still cooking there.
Leafbox: How was that good, bad, hard?
George: I, it was, I learned a lot. I learned enough. I think I'm ready to move on, ready to move on to a different thing.
Leafbox: Do you imagine opening a restaurant or are you more interested in documenting and kind of,
George: I want to open a restaurant in the near future. That's my, that's like my short term goal.
Leafbox: And would that be a vegetarian restaurant or
George: I think even if it weren't vegetarian, I would make vegetarian options. Yeah, it's if I served like braised pork or rice, I would make a vegetarian version for sure. Because it's just part of, I think it's part of, it's just a good balance.
Leafbox: Great. And then, do you have any other things you want to share about the book or your projects? We spoke a lot about your grandpa, and in the book you mentioned your grandma as well. Is there anything else you want to share?
George: I should.
I think my mention of the, my, my grandma who I mentioned in the book was actually my maternal grandma.
My, my maternal grandma was still a kind of mysterious figure for me because she's the one who is actually like sort of a master chef in my family, but I never really had the chance to live with her. ' cause my mother and her, my grandma and my mom and her whole family, I immigrated to Maryland.
When I, when my mom, when my mother was 14 years old.
And because I lived with my paternal family, I never really had the chance. Interacting with that side of the family. It's just very fragmented interactions. For example, I go there and live with my grandmother for one or two weeks, but it was almost all when I was little.
My grandmother was really, was a great cook. I remember she used to chase me around and try to feed me.
Leafbox: Well, I think you have two books there. You have the Feng Shui of Taiwan, Woodworking, and then maybe you have a book on recreating your grandma's memories and lessons in food culture.
George: So many books.
Leafbox: You have a lot of projects that you could explore. Yeah it's great. I think you're painting a picture of Taiwanese cuisine that's so deep and yeah, it's very multifaceted. So it's you cover the Japanese influence, the American influence, the indigenous, the mainland Chinese, just the fusion, the hybridization, Buddhist, there's a lot of traditions that kind of wrap together to make Taiwanese food.
George: Yeah, I think the cooking like speaks for itself, and it's really fascinating.
Leafbox: Yeah, listening to you talk about the book makes me appreciate it more. I think you put a lot of thinking into it. Laurent did a great job shooting with it and it's it almost seems like a story arc about you exploring one who your grandpa's story, but also who you are in relationship to Taiwan.
So I think
George: that's something I'm still thinking about even then, even now, but not even now, yeah, I'll still be thinking about it when I'm like 40 or something.
Leafbox: Yeah, so that's why I was kind of shocked when you brought up the Instagram thing. I understand why those 30 second or one minute videos, I didn't see them, but I can see why they seem superficial when it takes you almost five minutes to answer a question about, you know, what did the nuns teach you?
You know, there's a lot of depth, there's a lot of thinking you're doing.
George: There's so much that I didn't even cover. And it's just yeah, the nuns,
Leafbox: Well, it's a good introduction to your book and your work and your process, George. I think it's a good conversation.
Concluding Thoughts
George: I think the biggest difference between the kind of food that I ate during the military and kind of vegetarian food that, that I had at the monastery was what like made me want to learn about vegetarian cooking.
They put so much care into their cooking. It's, and they grow their own food. Every day we, the greens we get are from the back garden, so, so nice, and the kinds of tofu all from scratch, yeah, it's just so much care put into vegetarian cooking and cooking as a kind of meditative practice.
Leafbox: Well, it just sounds like you, in the beginning of the conversation, you said that your grandpa taught you the value of craft.
And not being superficial. So I think that's what all this work and your journey is about. It seems like to me.
George: Yeah. I was reading the, when I was reading hundred years of solitude, I felt like my grandfather, the grandfather I knew was that guy who like sat in his in his gold workshop, just every day, like putting the little scales on the goldfish, have you watched, have you read the book?
Leafbox: I haven't read that, Gabriel Marquez, but yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with the story.
George: Yeah, there was a guy who who just went, every day he went into his workshop to, to put little scales on goldfish that he made from from melting gold coins. That, that reminded me of my grandfather.
Leafbox: Well, George, I don't want to take more of your time. I really appreciate your thoughts and we'll be in touch.
George: Okay. Great. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
For more information: A Gong's Table